Curse

Kunder · Dec 04, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

All of these replies which get hung up on the "dps" potential of Discord in a vaccuum are silly.

Why even bring up how much dps Discord does? We all know that number isn't germaine to any discussion about a Discordway build. Why do y'all keep falling back on the "dps rating" of that one skill, and then quoting it like it's a relevant metric? That's just soo weird!

Discord is a spell that does nothing but damage. If we aren't rating it based on the damage it does then what should we rate it by? How cool the spell animation is?

Boogz · Dec 04, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

get one human friend, 6 necros, 6x discord/putrid bile/shambling horror, some necros with suffering/shadow of fear/enfeebling blood/weaken armor.

counters: cry of frustration spam from wind riders in asuran territory

Morphy · Dec 04, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Discord is a spell that does nothing but damage. If we aren't rating it based on the damage it does then what should we rate it by? How cool the spell animation is?

Judge it on the rest of the bar and on skills that could possibly replace Discord.

Sword Hammer Axe · Dec 04, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I never use it... soooo... there you have it

Kunder · Dec 05, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Judge it on the rest of the bar and on skills that could possibly replace Discord.

The rest of the bar is irrelevant if we are talking about whether Discord is overpowered or not. Necros in general are overpowered in PvE (though to be honest what class isn't nowadays?). That doesn't mean that any elite you stick on an already overpowered bar makes that elite overpowered.

As for skills stronger then Discord, the most obviously ridiculous examples are AotL and SS. Both stronger then Discord and don't require the necro to spend time spamming one skill to the neglect of the rest of the bar. As you point out, its the entire bar that matters. Using Discord effectively means you can't use the rest of your bar.

Jeydra · Dec 05, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The rest of the bar is irrelevant if we are talking about whether Discord is overpowered or not. Necros in general are overpowered in PvE (though to be honest what class isn't nowadays?). That doesn't mean that any elite you stick on an already overpowered bar makes that elite overpowered.

As for skills stronger then Discord, the most obviously ridiculous examples are AotL and SS. Both stronger then Discord and don't require the necro to spend time spamming one skill to the neglect of the rest of the bar. As you point out, its the entire bar that matters. Using Discord effectively means you can't use the rest of your bar.

What? AotL does zero damage on its own. All it does is summon one Bone Horror. It won't summon more unless you wait another 45 seconds, and even then you'll only have like 3 minions max because you can't heal them. And you claim it is stronger?

Of course you have to include the rest of the bar when evaluating Discord. Discordway is a teambuild, not a one-skill show. AotL is arguably stronger than Discord, but that's only after you include the rest of the bar.

I can't believe you think using Discord means you can't use the rest of the bar. Is there some kind of supernatural force compelling you to keep using Discord?

Marverick · Dec 05, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Precisely the reason why heroes are good at Discord builds is because they can use Discord on enemies while simultaneously using other support skills. Ofc if you take some noob human and give him a Discord bar he'll just keep spamming Discord without doing anything else.

Shadow Dragon · Dec 06, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

no effect one me, i'll just run a standard balanced group as always.

works well and while it ain't fancy or fast it works

chilly willy · Dec 06, 2010, 06:05 AM // 06:05

discord blows for a human in my opinion u can easily just use necrosis the small drop in damage is worth it for the freed up elite slot and you dont have to spec into death magic if u dont want to. not to mention its easier to meet necrosis' needs. and its very very easy to get to rank 6-8 sunspear where the overall damage is good enough.

Yawgmoth · Dec 06, 2010, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilly willy

discord blows for a human in my opinion u can easily just use necrosis the small drop in damage is worth it for the freed up elite slot and you dont have to spec into death magic if u dont want to. not to mention its easier to meet necrosis' needs. and its very very easy to get to rank 6-8 sunspear where the overall damage is good enough.

Have you tried putting Necrosis on your heroes?

SpyderArachnid · Dec 06, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What? AotL does zero damage on its own. All it does is summon one Bone Horror. It won't summon more unless you wait another 45 seconds, and even then you'll only have like 3 minions max because you can't heal them. And you claim it is stronger?

Wait what?

AotL exploits all corpses in the area plus one for each exploited corpse and gives you a +1 to Death Magic. If your Necro hero is runed, that is an easy ten minions instantly when in combat or after combat.

Even during downtime, I'm sure you have a Monk hero that just loves to heal those minions non-stop. I know mine do all the time.

AotL gives you a mini army at all times basically. And when you start dropping mobs left and right, they just feed that army with one single spell instead of having to have a bar full of different minions and only being able to summon one minion at a time. AotL gives you ten minions instantly in one spell and bumps up your Death Magic.

OT: I don't use Discord anymore. Did at first when I was new cause it was easy to use. Now I use my own setup for heroes. All depends what kind of character I am playing. But gave up on Discord awhile back.

Acehole2006 · Dec 06, 2010, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Im not a fan of Triple discord, but I am a fan of other triple necro hero builds and tend to use the 3 necro's (Livia, Olias, Whispers) all the time except if i want Rt SoS or need a hero monk.

I love the Triple vanquish setup found on PvX, which is SS, MM and Restoration Support.

Currently working on my own triple necro builds though.

Rushin Roulette · Dec 06, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What? AotL does zero damage on its own. All it does is summon one Bone Horror. It won't summon more unless you wait another 45 seconds, and even then you'll only have like 3 minions max because you can't heal them. And you claim it is stronger?

Of course you have to include the rest of the bar when evaluating Discord. Discordway is a teambuild, not a one-skill show. AotL is arguably stronger than Discord, but that's only after you include the rest of the bar.

I can't believe you think using Discord means you can't use the rest of the bar. Is there some kind of supernatural force compelling you to keep using Discord?

Sooo much fail in one post its painful to read.

From what you are writing you have never used or read the skill description of AOTL. It exploits EVERY corpse in the area (Agro bubble + a little bit more) and resses a Bone minion out of EVERY exploited corpse and one additional Bone minion out of thin air. If you are nowhere near an exploitable corpse then you will be only getting the +1 minion

The downside of using AOTL on any bar is that any other MM will be basically useless for most of the time because of how AOTL uses up every corpse even if the minion cap has been reached.

As for calculating damage /spamming like theres no tomorrow from Discord builds... Discord is the hardest hitting skill on the Heroes bars and has such a short recharge that heroes should be spamming it and nothing else to maximize the damage dealt. The rest of the skills are there to support Discord (Conditions from Death Nova and Curses) and healing / Prot to keep the party alive.

Daesu · Dec 06, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Precisely the reason why heroes are good at Discord builds is because they can use Discord on enemies while simultaneously using other support skills. Ofc if you take some noob human and give him a Discord bar he'll just keep spamming Discord without doing anything else.

There is one reason why the pvx discordway has mostly healing skills on 2 of its discord necro bars, the other one being a MB.

Discord is usually the only offensive skill on a discord necro hero bar because it has a short casting time and a fast recharge. This means you do not need another offensive skill on that bar, to compete for casting time when the hero AI determines that you are going on an offensive attack. Having a short recharge and fast casting time also works better with heals, when heals are needed, on the skill bar.

Wrath of m0o · Dec 06, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Never played Discord..waiting for minnions is too slow..me thinks.

FengShuiDove · Dec 06, 2010, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I don't think people are getting Jeydra's post at all.

Saying Discord sucks because of its lonestanding DPS capability (35 DPS) is like saying AotL sucks because, lonestanding, it produces 1 minion with a 45 second recharge, which is crap.

What makes those skills good is bar compression and synergy. Discord is good because you can pack a full healer bar on top of it. 35 DPS isn't the issue, 105 armor-ignoring spike damage with party and spike heals on the same character is the issue. AotL is good because you compress an instant minion army and attribute buff into one skill and the rest of the build can carry whatever else, usually Death Nova and prots. The reason Discordway is effective is that you compress damage, de-buffs, prots, and heals into 3 characters. Each aspect on its own is rather unimpressive... there are lots of things that can play offense, defense, and shutdown better than Discord, but it's the compression that makes it worthwhile.

So please read before you attack someone. Honestly. Jeydra even says AotL is arguably better than Discord.

chilly willy · Dec 06, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Have you tried putting Necrosis on your heroes?

no because its a pve skill. someone further up the page was referring to discord on a human compared to heroes and i merely said its stupid for a human to use discord. i just forgot to qoute him.

Morphy · Dec 06, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The rest of the bar is irrelevant if we are talking about whether Discord is overpowered or not.

No it isn't. Discord is able to perform a pretty specific task (spiking) on its own without too much dedication, which means the heroes have room for other stuff, while also enabling powerful minion spells through DM spec. It's pure bar compression, a strength that should certainly not be ignored.

Quote:

Necros in general are overpowered in PvE (though to be honest what class isn't nowadays?). That doesn't mean that any elite you stick on an already overpowered bar makes that elite overpowered.

I never claimed that. It's about taking the optimal skill for a specific team build. I'm arguing that Discord is exactly that.

Quote:

As for skills stronger then Discord, the most obviously ridiculous examples are AotL and SS. Both stronger then Discord and don't require the necro to spend time spamming one skill to the neglect of the rest of the bar. As you point out, its the entire bar that matters. Using Discord effectively means you can't use the rest of your bar.

Eh, you got it backward here, Discord usage is done in the time the hero is not healing up/spamming minions and even if it wasn't, 2 seconds is plenty of time to cast useful shit. If you're uncomfortable with the amount of time Discord is consuming, micro it. Not hard.

Concerning AotL, the power of the skill is that it allows you to put all the needed minion mastery in one skill, freeing up party space for non-Necromancer bars. It's pretty much completely uncomparable to Discord as Jagged Bones is favored over AotL for heavy Necromancer teams. More minions dying means more energy for the backline.

Concerning SS, same story really. If you're taking this skill, you won't be taking minion skills on the same bar, which either means you're running another Necromancer dedicated to minion mastery or no other Necromancers at all.

What you seem to be arguing is Sabway vs Discordway. They both require minimal micro, feature a lot of Necromancers and both have big defenses, lots of minions and lots of pressure. They, however, serve different purposes. Sabway is meant to be ran with physical-heavy teams whereas Discordway is best ran with casters. PvXwiki even puts an AP caller in the discordway by default. I'm pretty sure people run Discord because it's best for caster spike teams. If you want to argue otherwise, go ahead.

Sethellington · Dec 06, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Continue to do what I currently do - use something better...

Jeydra · Dec 07, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Sooo much fail in one post its painful to read.

From what you are writing you have never used or read the skill description of AOTL. It exploits EVERY corpse in the area (Agro bubble + a little bit more) and resses a Bone minion out of EVERY exploited corpse and one additional Bone minion out of thin air. If you are nowhere near an exploitable corpse then you will be only getting the +1 minion

The downside of using AOTL on any bar is that any other MM will be basically useless for most of the time because of how AOTL uses up every corpse even if the minion cap has been reached.

As for calculating damage /spamming like theres no tomorrow from Discord builds... Discord is the hardest hitting skill on the Heroes bars and has such a short recharge that heroes should be spamming it and nothing else to maximize the damage dealt. The rest of the skills are there to support Discord (Conditions from Death Nova and Curses) and healing / Prot to keep the party alive.

If you say Discord sucks because it deals 35 DPS (or whatever number it is from xxx damage / 2.75s), you say AotL sucks because it raises 1 minion. AotL alone does no damage, so you won't have 10 bodies to exploit, unless you think that 1 minion can kill 10 monsters.

The point is that you have to consider the rest of the bar. Discordway is not 3 Necros with Discord and nothing else. Discord Necros are not Necros with Discord and nothing else. Claiming that Discord does only 35 DPS implies the Necro has nothing else on the bar, which is ridiculous.

I think it's hilarious you think I've never used AotL when I've argued repeatedly for AotL over Jagged Bones or Discord on the Minion bomber.

If you really think spamming Discord is the way to go then I suggest you put a Discord Necro with no skills other than Discord against the MoD, and see what DPS you get (go ahead and bring skills that apply hexes / conditions on yourself). I'll do the same, with a Discord Necro that has other skills. If you get more DPS than me I'll concede defeat. Interested?

PS: Strictly speaking Discord does 0 DPS on its own because it's neither a hex nor a condition. Shows you how silly it is to claim that Discord does 35 DPS (or whatever number it is), no?